Keywords: HI Senate YouTube, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty1XcqvNkEM, 2026-07-02T01:23:35+00:00, 2.2.24, Data collected via generic collector engine, 00:00 - Start 00:42 - HB 2438, HD3 03:08 - DM EDT-WLA-TRS 1:00 PM 05:19 - WLA-EDT-AEN 1:01 PM 05:32 - HB 1949, HD1 40:16 - DM WLA-EDT-AEN 1:01 PM 50:22 - WLA-HOU-HWN 1:02 PM 50:51 - HB 2049, HD3 01:01:38 - DM WLA-HOU-HWN 1:02 PM 01:08:25 - WLA 1:05 PM 01:08:35 - HB 1710, HD2 01:23:07 - DM WLA 1:05 PM 01:25:28 - WLA DEFER 1:12 PM Hearing Notices: EDT-WLA-TRS 1:00 PM https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/sessions/session2026/hearingnotices/HEARING_EDT-WLA-TRS_03-25-26_.PDF WLA-EDT-AEN 1:01 PM https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/sessions/session2026/hearingnotices/HEARING_WLA-EDT-AEN_03-25-26_.PDF WLA-HOU-HWN 1:02 PM https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/sessions/session2026/hearingnotices/HEARING_WLA-HOU-HWN_03-25-26_.PDF WLA 1:05 PM https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/sessions/session2026/hearingnotices/HEARING_WLA_03-25-26_.PDF WLA DEFER 1:12 PM https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/sessions/session2026/hearingnotices/HEARING_WLA_03-25-26_DEFER_.PDF, 912, senate, all, 2.2.42, 2.1.47

Keywords: HI Senate YouTube, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlsDI-81aOI, 2026-07-02T01:23:00+00:00, 2.2.24, Data collected via generic collector engine, Agendas: EET-WTL 3:00PM http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2022/hearingnotices/HEARING_EET-WTL_03-30-22_.pdf EET-GVO 3:05PM http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2022/hearingnotices/HEARING_EET-GVO_03-30-22_.pdf EET-HOU 3:10PM http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2022/hearingnotices/HEARING_EET-HOU_03-30-22_.pdf EET-TRS 3:15PM http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2022/hearingnotices/HEARING_EET-TRS_03-30-22_.pdf EET 3:20PM http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2022/hearingnotices/HEARING_EET_03-30-22_.pdf, 912, senate, all, 2.2.42, 2.1.47

Bills: HB213, HB136, HB182, HB213, HB136, HB182

Keywords: HB213, Calhoun County, board of registrars, registrar compensation, county commission, local legislation, election administration, county general fund, expense allowance, officeholder compensation, public officials pay, county election officials, Alabama Code 45-8-110, Teacher's Retirement System, TRS, DROP, Deferred Retirement Option Plan, retirement benefits, teacher retirement, classroom teacher

Transcript Highlights:

• Now, basically, if a school district leaves TRS active care, they have to wait. wait five years before
• Districts leaving TRS active care when their costs are low and getting back into TRS active care when
• TRS is going to work and there is a resource witness, but TRS is going to work with the districts and
• TRS Hopefully that makes sense.
• And again, it will have no negative impact on those that are in TRS.

Bills: HB 1178, HB1411, HB1441, HB1773, HB1813, HB2107, HB2598, HB2911, HB2967, HB3672, HB5263, HB3797

Keywords: education, temporary certification, out-of-state educators, teacher shortage, military spouses, personal leave, school holidays, employee compensation, overtime provisions, school safety, peace officers, mental health, de-escalation techniques, trauma-informed care, student trustee, school board, student representation, education policy, nonvoting position, school governance

Bills: HB 1178, HB1411, HB1441, HB1773, HB1813, HB2107, HB2598, HB2911, HB2967, HB3672, HB5263, HB3797

Keywords: education, temporary certification, out-of-state educators, teacher shortage, military spouses, personal leave, school holidays, employee compensation, overtime provisions, school safety, peace officers, mental health, de-escalation techniques, trauma-informed care, student trustee, school board, student representation, education policy, nonvoting position, school governance

Bills: HB245, HB138, HB151, HB152, HB245, HB138, HB151, HB152

Keywords: inhalants, controlled substances, butyl nitrite, nitrous oxide, amyl nitrite, health, public safety, pregnancy, pregnant defendant, incarceration, jail intake, pregnancy test, bail, pre-incarceration probation, supervised probation, electronic monitoring, electronic supervision, perinatal care, prenatal care, maternal health

Bills: HB136, HB137, HB220, HB213, HB256, HB136, HB137, HB220, HB213, HB256

Keywords: Teacher's Retirement System, TRS, DROP, Deferred Retirement Option Plan, retirement benefits, teacher retirement, classroom teacher, Tier I, Tier II, public pension, pension reform, education employees, retirement system, sick leave, cost-of-living adjustment, COLA, beneficiary, lump-sum payout, rollover, service retirement

Transcript Highlights:

• We certainly went to TrS.
• And the teacher TrS system just reached 80%.
• I want to thank the TR system and Miss Green specifically because they They hustled hard over the weekend
• just a minute ago some statistics that I hadn't heard yet, so I'd like to be able to maybe work with TrS

Bills: SB134, SB1356, SB1407, SB1611, SB1639, SB169, SB1722, SB182, SB1870, SB2039, SB432, SB609, SB715, SB716

Keywords: retirement, public employees, reemployment, benefit adjustment, Oklahoma Public Employees Retirement System, state government, OMES, Office of Management and Enterprise Services, Department of Labor, Department of Veterans Affairs, Department of Rehabilitation Services, civil service, human capital management, state employee disputes, whistleblower, veterans employment, veterans placement, fleet management, state fleet, motor vehicles

Bills: SB107, HB158, HB353, HB354, HB357, HB181, HB465, HB526

Keywords: SSUT, simplified sellers use tax, sales tax distribution, municipal revenue, municipal population, annexation, deannexation, incorporation, boundary change, federal census, decennial census, Department of Revenue, local government finance, revenue sharing, municipal boundaries, population recalculation, probate judge, Boundary and Annexation Survey, Alabama municipalities, HB158

Transcript Highlights:

• make the payments we need to provide clear guidance to school systems and TRS.
• Instead, it standardizes what TRS will cover, effective July 1, 2026.
• Are those educators participating in TRS?
• has had to discussions with TRS has had to discussions with TRS regarding<00:11:31.279> administrative
• <00:15:49.199> to maternity leave it requires TRS to maternity leave it requires TRS to report

Keywords: 958, all

Summary: The Senate State and Local Government Committee met and first took up Senate Bill 193, described as a simple measure to restore a wallet card for jailers to carry when outside the jail. The chair noted the fiscal impact was essentially zero, there were no questions, and the committee voted to pass the bill 9-0. The committee then heard Senate Bill 9, a proposal focused on the Teachers’ Retirement System (TRS). The sponsor argued TRS remains underfunded despite large state contributions, cited rising unfunded liability and negative cash flow, and said the bill is intended to standardize and limit what sick leave, personal leave, and annual leave can count toward retirement calculations. The bill would generally cap TRS retirement credit at 10 sick days and 2 personal days per year, prevent annual leave from being rolled into sick leave, require more uniform reporting and oversight from participating districts and agencies, and shift costs to districts that offer benefits beyond TRS limits. The sponsor also said the bill would add 30 maternity leave days, allow voluntary supplemental contributions for Tier Four teachers, and include a floor amendment directing the state auditor to audit TRS and report on agency leave policies. During the presentation, the sponsor emphasized fairness, transparency, and accountability, and used a hypothetical high-salary administrator to illustrate how leave payouts can increase retirement benefits and create additional unfunded liability. Senator Mills thanked the sponsor and said members had been working to understand the issue, but no committee action on Senate Bill 9 was completed in the portion provided.

Transcript Highlights:

• annual leave programs in the TRS annual leave programs in the TRS valuation.<00:19:13.280> So
• TRS members may return to work for a TRS TRS members may return to work for a TRS participating<
• have heard me talk before about TRS have heard me talk before about TRS being<00:28:24.000> a
• going back in a TRS covered position. going back in a TRS covered position.
• <00:33:30.880> Uh TRS. We have TRS1, TRS2, TRS3, TRS4. Uh TRS.

Keywords: Meeting Start: 00:00:09 Attendance Roll Call: 00:01:42 Approval of Minutes: 00:03:23 Overview of Actuarial Audit Process: 00:03:47 Overview of Reemployment After Retirement Provisions: 00:25:26 Teachers’ Retirement System: 00:25:26 Kentucky Public Pensions Authority: 00:50:32 Adjournment: 01:02:55, 958, all

Summary: The meeting began with quorum, approval of the prior minutes, and an announcement that the June meeting had been canceled and replaced by this combined May/June meeting; the next official PPOB meeting was announced for July 21 at 2:30. Staff then gave an overview of the Public Pension Oversight Board’s required actuarial audit process, explaining that House Bill 238 requires a review every five years of the retirement systems’ actuarial assumptions and methods, funded by the systems themselves. The presentation distinguished this audit from a financial or forensic audit, described the three possible audit levels (full replication, limited/spot review, or basic review), and noted that the last audit in 2021 was a level one performed by Milleman Consulting at a cost of about $190,000. Members discussed timing for the next audit cycle, with a request to LRC likely needed in July or August to target the June 30, 2026 valuation, and several members expressed interest in another level one review. Questions also addressed whether prior audits found major issues; staff said the 2021 review was generally clean but recommended more consistency in reporting and assumptions across systems. The committee then welcomed new staff and interns, including Odet Guanzi of KPPPA and Team Kentucky intern Amamira Bowman. Bo Barnes of the Teachers Retirement System presented an overview of the statutory framework for reemployment after retirement under KRS 161.605. He explained that the law is intended to let retirees return to help with staffing needs, do so in an actuarially sound way through required contributions, and keep TRS compliant with federal tax rules for a qualified plan under section 401(a). Barnes described the required breaks in service and earnings limits for retirees returning part-time or full-time, including the three-month or 12-month break depending on the employer, the 6,900-day limit, and the daily wage threshold based on years of service. He also noted a lightly used critical shortage program that allows school districts to hire retirees without a wage cap, while still observing the break-in-service rules. Members asked questions about who decides the scope and level of the actuarial audit, how the audit would treat leave balances and other benefit-related items, and whether the prior level one audit identified substantial problems. Staff said the committee would request the audit, but LRC would handle contracting, and that the audit scope could include items like sick leave and annual leave costs if requested. On the reemployment topic, Barnes emphasized that the rules are designed to avoid pre-arranged retire-and-return arrangements that could jeopardize TRS’s tax-qualified status. No formal votes were taken beyond approving the minutes, and the meeting concluded with the presentations and discussion of these pension oversight issues.

Transcript Highlights:

• provided compared with what TRS provided compared with what TRS requested.<00:05:03.840> And<
• <00:20:58.159> budget difference between the TRS budget difference between the TRS budget
• <00:21:13.280> would here was just saying TRS would here was just saying TRS would respectfully
• But with TRS, I I think to be made.
• <00:25:35.440> being will, over interest uh for TRS being will, over interest uh for TRS being

Keywords: 958, all

Summary: The House Budget Review Subcommittee on Personnel, Public Retirement, and Finance heard testimony from Bo Barnes, deputy executive secretary and general counsel for the Teachers’ Retirement System (TRS), on the TRS budget request for the upcoming biennium and how it compares with House Bill 500 as introduced. Barnes emphasized that the bill fully funds the system’s additional funding request to pay down TRS’s legacy unfunded pension liability, which he described as critical to the system’s long-term funding plan. He also explained that the pension and health insurance requests are broken into several line items, including legacy benefit items, state shared-responsibility payments for retiree health insurance, and reconciliation items that adjust for prior over- or underpayments. Barnes said the state portion of shared responsibility for retiree health insurance was funded below the request in House Bill 500, but he described the health insurance trust as a success story under the post-2010 shared-responsibility model. He said the trust is projected to be fully funded in about two years if medical inflation and federal subsidies remain stable, and he noted that any shortfall in the current budget would be reconciled later and could reduce investment income. In response to questions, he explained that the legacy benefit items are treated as part of the total actuarially determined employer contribution and that unpaid legacy benefits would have the same impact on the retirement trust as unpaid ADC amounts. Barnes also addressed questions about whether the $47.2 million SEEK-related teacher contribution reconciliation could be split between fiscal years, saying it could be done but would reduce investment income and potentially increase future contribution needs. He said the pension fund is currently about 61% funded and that TRS has received full funding for the pension for 10 straight years, with the state having provided full additional funding and more in recent budgets. He concluded by asking the committee to consider TRS’s original budget request, warning that underfunding now would be reflected in future actuarial calculations and could cost the Commonwealth more over time.

Transcript Highlights:

• <00:04:18.639> and of teachers retirement system TRS and of teachers retirement system TRS
• that All State agencies other than TRS that All State agencies other than TRS calculate<00:09:13.120
• participating in in TRS um KD in<00:21:37.080> TRS<00:21:38.080> uh<00:21:38.200> TRS
• <00:21:40.760> kctcs<00:21:41.760> and<00:21:41.960> all in TRS uh TRS is in TRS
• uh kctcs and all in TRS uh TRS is in TRS uh kctcs and all the<00:21:42.279> universities<00:21

Keywords: Meeting Start: 00:44 Attendance Roll Call: 00:55 SB 193 (Sen. Girdler): 01:53 SB 9 (Sen. Higdon): 03:22 SB 257 (Sen. Tichenor): 34:14 Adjournment: 50:57, 958, all

Summary: The Senate Standing Committee on State and Local Government first took up Senate Bill 193, a simple measure described as restoring wallet cards for jailers to carry when they are outside the jail. The sponsor noted the fiscal impact was essentially zero, there were no questions, and the committee approved the bill 9-0 for passage to the Senate floor. The committee then heard Senate Bill 9, sponsored by Senator Higdon, which would change how the Teachers Retirement System (TRS) treats sick leave, personal leave, and annual leave in retirement calculations. The sponsor argued the bill is intended to address TRS’s financial challenges by standardizing leave rules statewide, limiting TRS retirement credit to 10 sick days and 2 personal days per year, preventing annual leave from being rolled into sick leave, requiring districts to pay the actuarial cost for any leave beyond the cap, and adding reporting and oversight requirements for participating agencies. He also said the bill would add 30 days of maternity leave, allow voluntary district contributions for tier four teachers, and direct the state auditor to audit TRS and report on agencies. Committee members asked about how overages would be audited and billed, the cost of a sick day, and how the bill would interact with local leave policies, including paid parental leave in some districts. The sponsor clarified that existing accumulated leave would not be affected, that the bill applies going forward, and that districts could still offer more leave but would bear the added cost. Members also discussed whether the maternity leave language set a cap or a minimum, and one senator noted the bill was intended to preserve personal days while stopping annual leave from being converted into pension credit. No vote on Senate Bill 9 was shown in the transcript excerpt.

Transcript Highlights:

• placing TRS in the top 23%. placing TRS in the top 23%.
• TRS does.
• TRS takes that lump-sum payment.
• <01:39:56.480> It's TRS takes that lumpsum payment. It's TRS takes that lumpsum payment.
• Um you know TRS is a social year.

Keywords: 958, all

Summary: The meeting opened with a quorum call, the Pledge of Allegiance, a prayer, and approval of the prior meeting minutes. The first presentation was from Bo Craycraft of the Judicial Form Retirement System, who gave an update on investment performance, asset allocation, cash flow, and projected employer costs. He reported strong fiscal year 2025 investment results, with both the legislative and judicial retirement plans outperforming their actuarial assumed rates of return and benchmarks, driven largely by U.S. equity performance. He also noted the plans remained near their target asset allocation and continued to experience negative cash flow, though he said that was manageable in context of strong asset growth. Craycraft then discussed a recent experience study and actuarial assumption changes, especially a revised salary growth assumption and a higher cash balance interest credit rate. He said these changes increased projected employer costs, with contributions rising from about $700,000 to a projected $2 million in later years, though he expected the eventual 2025 valuation and investment gains to reduce that estimate. Members asked about mortality assumptions, the impact of the experience study on liabilities, and the sharp increase in the judicial plan’s projected employer cost. Craycraft explained that the increase was driven mainly by the updated assumptions and that no other major plan changes were involved. At the chair’s request, Craycraft also addressed the recent rise in Medicare Advantage premiums for the plan’s health coverage, saying the 2025 increase was largely tied to Part D changes and the Inflation Reduction Act and had been about 45%, but that future growth was expected to be under 5%. After his presentation, the committee moved to the Kentucky Public Pensions Authority update, where the next speaker began by saying the funds had exceeded actuarial assumed returns for the fiscal year.

Transcript Highlights:

• represents federal subsidies that TRS represents federal subsidies that TRS works<00:43:26.800><
• <00:49:26.800> uh lumpsum payment be reported to TRS uh lumpsum payment be reported to TRS
• uh in the House uh to add the TRS uh in the House uh to add the TRS housekeeping<00:52:55.839>
• <00:53:09.200> So at TRS any practice or procedure. So at TRS any practice or procedure.
• members at TRS. members at TRS.

Keywords: Meeting Start: 00:00:01 Attendance Roll Call: 00:01:26 Approval of Minutes: 00:02:27 Investment, Cash Flow, and Legislative Update: Bo Cracraft – Judicial Form Retirement System: 00:03:12 Ryan Barrow – Kentucky Public Pensions Authority: 00:21:52 Beau Barnes – Teachers’ Retirement System: 00:34:31 Adjournment: 01:07:25, 958, all

Summary: The meeting opened with the Pledge of Allegiance and prayer, followed by a roll call confirming a quorum and approval of the prior minutes. A special guest, Dave Eager, was welcomed before the committee moved to presentations from retirement system officials. Bo Craycraft, executive director of the Judicial Form Retirement System, gave a quarterly update on investment performance, asset allocation, and cash flow. He said the plans had held up well amid market volatility, with fiscal year-to-date returns above benchmark and long-term returns remaining strong. He explained that the plans are targeted to a 70% equity/30% fixed-income allocation, that some cash is being held for cash-flow management, and that negative cash flow is expected because of funding and contribution levels. He also said Senate Bill 183, dealing with proxy voting and economic analysis for certain votes, was not expected to materially affect the plans because of their small number of holdings and Bear Trust’s long-term investment approach. Ryan Barrow and Erin Surrod then presented for the Kentucky Pension Authority. They reported positive quarterly performance across the retirement and insurance funds, though results varied by period and remained tied to broader market conditions. They said recent asset-allocation changes had been completed and the funds were now within target ranges. On cash flow, they noted some plans remained negative or near zero, with one plan benefiting from a large appropriation. In the legislative update, they described House Bill 30 as codifying an exclusion from pension-spiking calculations for across-the-board raises, and Senate Bill 10 as increasing retiree health insurance subsidies and changing employee health insurance contribution rules for certain CERS members beginning in 2026. They also said Senate Bill 183 would likely have limited impact, though the agency would review voting policies and incorporate any required economic-analysis procedures.

Transcript Highlights:

• <00:10:16.560> medical 2010 uh in 2010 uh when the TRS medical 2010 uh in 2010 uh when the
• TRS medical Insurance<00:10:17.399> Fund<00:10:17.760> was<00:10:18.079> depleted
• Insurance Fund at TRS were 75% from<00:15:47.759> the<00:15:47.920> state<00:15:48.240
• And the law says right now when the TRS actuary determines that the fund is fully funded, then the TRS
• Full funding is determined by the TRS actuary. This says it's fully funded when it hits 100%.

Keywords: Meeting Start 00:00:00 Roll Call 00:00:05 HB 545Discussion 00:00:40 HB 545 Vote 00:01:35 HJR 54 Discussion 00:02:25 HJR 54 Vote 00:03:10 HB 694 Discussion 00:03:42 HB 694 Vote 00:28:25, 958, all

Summary: The committee met with a quorum and first took up House Bill 545, a routine claims bill. Representative Tim Truett explained it as a measure to pay debts the Commonwealth owes. The bill received a motion, a second, and a roll call vote, and passed with favorable expression and no nay votes. Members then considered House Joint Resolution 54, which related to the Kentucky State Fair Board’s expansion plan. The chair explained that the resolution simply acknowledged receipt and approval of the plan so previously appropriated funds could be released. The resolution passed by roll call with no nay votes and was reported favorably to the floor. The main discussion centered on House Bill 694, concerning the Kentucky Teachers Retirement System medical insurance fund and the 2010 “shared responsibility” agreement. The bill would redirect employer contributions from local districts from the health side to the pension side once the plan reaches 100% funded. The chair and Senator Givens argued the bill was a continuation of the state’s long-term commitment to TRS and taxpayer responsibility, while Senator Neal raised concerns about fairness, the timing of the change, and whether the original agreement and statutory trigger for TRS board recommendations had been honored. Testimony from KEA President Eddie Campbell and former Jefferson County Teachers Association president Brent McMahan supported the 2010 agreement but urged the committee to pause the bill, saying the parties should return to the table and that the current proposal could conflict with the original understanding, create actuarial and legal issues, and potentially affect school district finances and bond ratings. Despite those concerns, the committee voted 8-1 to pass House Bill 694 with favorable expression, with Senator Neal voting no and explaining his objection as a process and good-faith concern.

Transcript Highlights:

• KS non-haz up to 7.1% for the TRS KS non-haz up to 7.1% for the TRS pension<00:13:15.519> fund
• Uh TRS has a uh private fixed.
• Then we get over to TRS.
• Um if we look Then we get over to TRS.
• <00:27:20.640> which general the exception being TRS which general the exception being TRS

Keywords: Meeting Start: 00:00 Attendance Roll Call: 01:02 Approval of Minutes: 02:03 Annual Investment Review: 04:10 Adjournment: 37:34, 958, all

Summary: The committee met with a quorum, approved the prior meeting minutes, welcomed new staff member Sean Parks, and announced that it would not meet in November. The next meeting was scheduled for December 8 at 10:00 a.m., with the chair noting that pension bills would be heard then and emphasizing that all pension bills must go through the full process and include actuarial analysis. Brad Gross of the Public Pension Oversight Board presented a detailed review of Kentucky retirement systems’ investments and funding. He said fiscal year 2025 ended with about $50.5 billion in pension assets and $12.52 billion in retiree health assets, both up from the prior year. He reported strong investment performance across the systems, with all Kentucky public pension funds exceeding their policy benchmarks and the median peer return of 10.4%. He also discussed long-term return trends, asset allocation differences among the systems, fee levels, and cash flow, noting that cash flow remains a key monitoring issue and that supplemental appropriations have improved the cash position of some funds, especially the Kentucky State Police and TRS systems. Gross also explained that assumed rates of return have generally fallen over time, which increases unfunded liabilities and required contributions, and said the systems’ current assumptions range from 5.25% to 7.1%. He noted that the committee’s materials included peer comparisons and historical charts, and that all asset classes were within target ranges. In response to a question from Senator Funky From, Gross was asked about pension spiking and whether supplemental general fund contributions could create a false sense of security in cash flow analysis; the question was raised but not resolved in the portion of the transcript provided.

Transcript Highlights:

• And in the testimony I've heard before from the head of TRS.
• to the Pension Committee earlier this week, is that the content of his testimony, The consequence of TRS
• May we hear from TRS about this as a resource witness today?
• I thought it was a separate bill where we would have to I guess we could put the money in through TRS
• There may have been an investment in TRS during that time as well. I don't I don't know.

Bills: HB2, HB2

Keywords: public education, teacher compensation, certification, funding, school finance, educator rights, education funding, charter schools, staff compensation, state aid, retention allotment, disaster preparedness, emergency management, flooding, mass fatality, mass casualty, fatality tracking, body recovery, autopsy, justice of the peace

Transcript Highlights:

• The agenda for this session was about promoting additional funding for TRS.
• In the budget, you have fully funded TRS Care for our retired school employees.
• This includes benefit enhancements for our TRS retirees.
• that retired with TRS.
• And we're so glad we've done it for TRS and not to say.

Bills: SB1, HB500, SB 1

Keywords: appropriations, budget, state funding, education, healthcare, infrastructure, state budget, mental health funding, education funding, infrastructure improvements, public safety, campground safety, youth camp regulations, flood safety, emergency evacuation, health and safety standards, 1184, house, all

Transcript Highlights:

• My office has worked directly with TRS to create the program.
• And, uh, again, we've worked with TRS to make sure that there's no negative impact on TRS active care
• Uh, I don't have a, uh, maybe TRS could answer that question when they come up.
• TRS has been very careful about that.
• We have worked with TRS and agree with them that that care is warranted.