Video & Transcript : 'outside counsel' :
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WA
Washington 2025-2026 Regular Session
House Community Safety Jan 26th, 2026 at 01:30 pm
Community Safety
Transcript Highlights:
- For the record, Lena Langer, counsel to the committee.
- Again, for the record, Lena Linger, counsel to the committee.
- I'm General Counsel of the Seattle Kraken and Climate Pledge Arena, but I'm here testifying today in
- Again, for the record, Lena Langer, counsel to the committee.
- In those two years, my co-worker-turned-stalker has bashed out car windows, left dead animals outside
Committee:
House Community Safety
Keywords:
sexual exploitation, minors, human trafficking, child safety, law enforcement, victim support, sexually violent predator, SVP, civil commitment, community notification, release notification, conditional release, unconditional discharge, escape notification, victim notification, witness notification, prosecuting attorney, Department of Social and Health Services, DSHS, Department of Corrections
MS
Mississippi 2026 Regular Session
Appropriations - Room 216, 22 January, 2026; 8:00 AM
Appropriations
Transcript Highlights:
- He's the board's private legal counsel. Alan Hoops, who is chair... ...legal counsel.
- Um they use by an outside vendor.
- </c> professional counseling professional counseling um<00:36:13.119><c> or</c><00:36:13.440><c> any<
- 23.040><c> Association</c> the Mississippi Counseling Association the Mississippi Counseling Association
- And were able to do counseling online.
Committee:
Joint Appropriations
HI
Transcript Highlights:
- a much-needed district court judge in Kona, and to address a critical shortage of court-appointed counsel
- The vast majority of people in these cases are without counsel, even though momentous issues like child
- even though momentous issues counsel even though momentous issues like<00:34:21.280><c> child</c><00
- </c><00:46:35.520><c> influence</c> Passion pressure or outside influence Passion pressure or outside
- It should be applied evenly to all, no matter if you're wealthy and powerful or on the outside looking
NH
New Hampshire 2025 Regular Session
House Health, Human Services and Elderly Affairs (04/16/2025)
Health, Human Services & Elderly Affairs
Transcript Highlights:
- We've started we've taken to calling counsel for the hospitals directly, counsel for Concord Hospital
- , counsel for the Elliott Hospital.
- We've started we've taken to calling counsel for the hospitals directly, counsel for Concord Hospital
- , counsel for the Elliott Hospital.
- We've started we've taken to calling counsel for the hospitals directly, counsel for Concord Hospital
MA
Massachusetts 2025-2026 Regular Session
Joint Committee on Housing Jun 21st, 2026 at 11:00 am
Joint Committee on Housing
Transcript Highlights:
- While 91% of landlords have counsel, less than 5% of tenants do.
- And in 93% of the cases, the landlord had counsel.
- I have three points today regarding access to counsel and housing.
- This is why access to counsel is essential.
- And this is particularly with regard to the right to counsel.
Committee:
Joint Joint Committee on Housing
Summary:
The Joint Committee on Housing held a hybrid hearing on a broad slate of landlord-tenant and home rule bills, with most testimony focused on rent stabilization, tenant opportunity to purchase (TOPA), tenant fees, access to counsel, algorithmic rent fixing, and tenant protections in subsidized housing. Chairs Cyr and Haggerty outlined the hearing procedures and noted that written testimony could also be submitted. Several members and invited speakers emphasized that the committee was hearing from both local officials and residents affected by housing instability, especially in Somerville and other communities facing high rents and displacement.
Supporters of rent stabilization and local-option rent control argued that Massachusetts needs tools to prevent displacement while new housing is built. Senator Eldridge, Senator Jalen, Somerville officials, tenant organizers, and residents described steep rent increases, no-fault evictions, and the loss of naturally occurring affordable housing. Somerville’s home rule petition was described as allowing annual increases tied to CPI plus 2%, capped at 5%, with exemptions for owner-occupied two- and three-family homes and a 15-year exemption for new construction. TOPA supporters said it would let tenants or their designees buy buildings before speculative buyers, preserving affordable housing stock; opponents, including small landlords and property managers, argued rent control would reduce supply, discourage investment, and that TOPA could delay sales and harm properties.
The committee also heard testimony on bills to curb junk fees and regulate tenant charges, including limits on late fees, lease renewal fees, payment portal fees, attorney’s fees, and other add-on charges. Advocates said these fees can add hundreds of dollars a month and disproportionately harm low-income renters and renters of color. Another major topic was algorithmic rent fixing: Senator Moore and Representative Sabadoza said landlords should not use software such as RealPage to coordinate pricing, citing federal antitrust actions and arguing that competition is essential to lowering rents. Additional testimony supported a statewide right to counsel in eviction cases, with legal services providers saying representation dramatically improves outcomes and can save the state money, and a bill to create an office of tenant protections to better enforce sanitary code violations. No votes or final actions were taken during the hearing.
NH
Transcript Highlights:
- ,</c><00:10:41.120><c> um</c> on our sidewalks, stand outside, um on our sidewalks, stand outside, um
- > 91A</c><00:32:16.720><c> information</c> Records outside of the 91A information Records outside of
- </c> I serve as the deputy general counsel I serve as the deputy general counsel for<00:46:51.520><c>
- </c><00:59:46.640><c> to</c> cost of legal counsel to cost of legal counsel to be<00:59:48.559><c> able
- So this and the executive counsel.
Committee:
Senate Judiciary
TX
Texas 89th Regular
Senate Committee on Higher Education Jul 28th, 2026
Transcript Highlights:
- In April 2026, I hired Ryan Walters as General Counsel and Deputy Director.
- or personnel matters outside Jurisdiction, 13 general complaints on academic or personnel matters outside
- Outside of degree requirements.
- I'm the General Counsel at the Texas A&M University System. Very good.
- Thank you, counsel.
Summary:
The Senate Committee on Higher Education met with a quorum, adopted its interim rules on a 6-0 vote, and heard opening remarks from members and staff introductions. The chair emphasized higher education’s role in workforce development and noted a Legislative Budget Board survey issue that was resolved after a community college initially did not respond because the survey was marked optional. The committee then focused on monitoring implementation of Senate Bill 37, which governs public higher education boards, curriculum review, faculty senates/councils, training for regents, and the ombudsman office.
Testimony from Chancellor Brandon Creighton of Texas Tech, Commissioner Wynn Rosser, UNT Chancellor Michael Williams, and Ombudsman Brandon Simmons described how SB 37 is being implemented. They said boards now have stronger authority, faculty senates are advisory, and institutions are reviewing general education curricula and other programs for rigor, relevance, and workforce value. Rosser said the statewide advisory committee is reviewing the core curriculum and board training requirements are being administered, while Simmons reported the ombudsman office has received 73 complaints, opened two investigations, and expects a third, with many complaints outside its jurisdiction or harassing in nature.
Members questioned witnesses about transfer credits, board training content, auditing, conflicts of interest, curriculum decisions, and whether any institutions were missing deadlines. Rosser said non-transferable credits have declined since reporting began under earlier law, and that the most common reason is courses outside degree requirements. Witnesses said they were not aware of institutions missing the SB 37 review deadlines. Senators also raised concerns about an appearance of impropriety in a Texas Tech-related matter and about whether a Dred Scott case should be taught in law school, with Creighton saying the curriculum review process did not prohibit teaching Supreme Court cases and that he would follow up. Later testimony from University of Houston, Texas State, UT, and Texas A&M system officials said their systems had updated policies, abolished prior faculty senates, created compliant advisory councils, and completed or were completing core curriculum reviews and related governance changes.
MO
Transcript Highlights:
- It separates those that are manufactured outside the state and those that are manufactured inside the
- And many guns, even if you have a suppressor on it, it's still technically outside of what they would
- And many guns, even if you have a suppressor on it, it's still technically outside of what they would
- Inside the building, because who's carrying, it's actually who's outside, which is what we're trying
- Is there any type of, I don't know, like psychological counseling, anything to...
Committee:
House General Laws
Summary:
The Committee on General Laws met with a quorum and first went into executive session on House Bill 2774, the Jeff Knight bill concerning gas-powered leaf blowers. An amendment was adopted to exempt the city of Clayton, Missouri, allowing it to ban gas-powered leaf blowers if it chooses. The committee then rolled the amendment into a House Committee Substitute and voted the substitute do pass by 12 yeas and 0 nays.
The committee next took up House Bill 2176 by Representative Perkins and voted it do pass by 8 yeas and 4 nays. After that, the committee held a public hearing on House Bill 1730, sponsored by Representative Koslow, which would treat Missouri-made firearm suppressors that remain in-state as outside federal Commerce Clause oversight. The sponsor and supporters argued the bill would protect hearing, reduce federal burdens, and not increase crime; members raised concerns about concealment and public safety, but no opposition testimony was offered and the hearing closed.
The final public hearing was on House Bill 2504 by Representative Elliott, which would expand who may be designated as school protection officers to include additional school personnel, such as classified staff, if they volunteer, complete required training, and are approved through local school board and state processes. Supporters, including a school superintendent, security trainer, law enforcement officer, and public advocate, said the bill would improve response times in rural districts that cannot afford school resource officers and emphasized the extensive training and vetting already required. Opponents or skeptical members questioned whether adding more armed personnel in schools was the right response to school violence, but no formal opposition testimony was presented before the committee adjourned.
NM
New Mexico 2026 Regular Session
House - Consumer and Public Affairs Feb 3rd, 2026
Transcript Highlights:
- Prior to joining CYFD's Office of General Counsel, Ms.
- As an associate general counsel with CYFD, Ms.
- There’s still discretion from the law, as the public defender and defense counsel.
- Trying to handle this outside of court.
- Because in this case... trying to handle this outside of court.
Summary:
The committee first heard House Bill 25, which would prohibit a juvenile who committed a firearm-related delinquent act that would be a felony if committed by an adult from legally owning or possessing a firearm for 10 years after disposition. The sponsor and supporters said the bill is intended to address serious youth gun violence without lengthening juvenile sentences or unsealing records, and they emphasized that the substitute language was meant to clarify, not change, the bill’s intent. Support came from law enforcement, the district attorney’s office, CYFD, and business interests, while opponents including the Public Defender, ACLU, and criminal defense advocates argued it conflicts with juvenile-code principles, creates civil disabilities based on juvenile conduct, and could raise Second Amendment and sealing-record concerns. Members raised extensive questions about how the NICS background-check process would work, what offenses would qualify, whether the measure would apply retroactively, and how sealed juvenile records and pardons would be handled. After discussion, the committee adopted the committee substitute, but no final vote on the bill was taken in the portion provided; members discussed possibly working on the language further in Judiciary or tabling it.
The committee then took up House Bill 15, the Medical Injury and Collaborative Resolution Act, described by the sponsor as New Mexico’s version of a candor law. The bill would create a protected adverse outcome conference process allowing patients and providers to discuss medical injuries or undesirable outcomes outside of court, with the goal of improving communication, giving patients answers, and reducing litigation. A family medicine doctor and a trial lawyer testified in support, saying patients often want explanations more than money and that open conversations can sometimes resolve disputes early. Public commenters also supported the concept, though one noted concerns about how pro se litigants would fit into the process.
Committee questions focused on how the bill would define injury, how confidentiality would be enforced, whether statements could be used in court, who would pay for the process, and how it would interact with existing malpractice procedures. The sponsors said the conference would be voluntary, not require an apology, and would be protected by evidentiary rules; if protected statements were introduced at trial, they said remedies such as mistrial could apply. The discussion continued into procedural details, but no final action on HB 15 appears in the provided portion.
OK
Oklahoma 2026 Regular Session
House of Representatives Second Regular Session of the 60th Legislature Day 14 Feb 24th, 2026
Oklahoma House Floor Meeting
Transcript Highlights:
- If you would, please take your seats and take your conversations outside.
- If you would, please take your seats and take your conversations outside.
- To the point of the dentist in Clinton who sees patients from outside of Geiman that drive to Clinton
- We have members of the Great Plains Association for College Admission Counseling.
- We have members of the Great Plains Association for College Admission Counseling.
Summary:
The House convened, completed the roll call, prayer, Pledge of Allegiance, and several introductions and recognitions, including guests from a South African refugee program, Weatherford Middle School students, international students, and the 2025 Aviation State Teacher of the Year, Sam Madewell. Representative Ranson also presented remarks for International Student Recognition Day, highlighting the economic and cultural contributions of international students in Oklahoma. The chamber then took up House Bill 4329 on dental insurance claims, with Pro Tem Moore arguing it would restore fairness by preventing insurers from controlling prices for services they do not cover; the bill drew questions about free-market effects, rural dentistry, and premiums, but Moore said it should not raise costs and noted similar laws in other states. HB 4329 passed 91-5.
The House also passed House Bill 2730, which ties the interest rate on taxpayer underpayments to market rates rather than a fixed statutory rate, after brief questions about how the rate would fluctuate; it passed 87-11. House Bill 3465, extending the sunset on the emission tax credit program from July 1, 2027 to July 1, 2029, passed 82-16. House Bill 4426, extending the sunset on the strategic industrial development enhancement sales tax credit from December 31, 2027 to December 31, 2032, passed 76-20.
During announcements, members noted upcoming committee meetings, a rural caucus with OSU President Hess, a devotional, and a lunch event tied to International Student Recognition Day. The House then recessed until the next day, Wednesday, February 25, 2026, at 1:30 p.m.
TX
Transcript Highlights:
- The opposing counsel issued to the sheriff.
- Outside of criminal liability, outside of civil liability, talking about these things.
- He was acting outside of the scope of employment.
- pressures on us to make decisions based upon pressures from the outside.
- pressures on us to make decisions based upon pressures from the outside.
Bills:
HB4011 , HB2680 , HB4325 , HB4327 , HB4944 , HB1761 , HB4688 , HB3453 , HB40 , HB1707 , HB4749 , HB2322 , HB3647 , HB4139 , HB4081 , HB2203 , HB2100 , HB4170 , HB3104 , HB4623 , HB40
Committee:
House Judiciary & Civil Jurisprudence
Keywords:
partition, heirs' property, real estate, co-ownership, family property, non-heir cotenant, right of first refusal, pilot services, liability limitation, maritime commerce, Matagorda Bay, Lavaca Bay, transportation code, maritime industry, civil liability, barratry, penalties, legal actions, damages, wrongful death
MA
Massachusetts 2025-2026 Regular Session
Joint Committee on Housing Jun 21st, 2026 at 01:00 pm
Joint Committee on Housing
Transcript Highlights:
- This legislature has been supportive in the last few years of access to counsel.
- I feel like access to counsel has been covered.
- We just got data yesterday about access to counsel, which is ramping up slowly.
- Justin Davidson, General Counsel for MAR.
- To figure out how to get stuff done, to think outside the box.
Committee:
Joint Joint Committee on Housing
Summary:
The Joint Committee on Housing held its second introductory hearing to frame the session’s housing agenda. Chairs Cyr and Haggerty described the hearing as a chance to hear a wide range of perspectives on Massachusetts’ housing crisis, including underbuilding, zoning and permitting barriers, rising costs, and the need for both state and local action. The committee heard from court, municipal, advocacy, and regional housing leaders, with recurring themes of increasing supply, preserving existing housing, preventing displacement, and expanding resources for renters and homeowners.
Chief Justice Diana Horan of the Housing Court said the court is handling more than 40,000 new filings annually with only 15 judges, and estimated the court would need about 21 judges to meet demand. She described complications from RAFT-related stays, mental health and guardianship issues, aging housing stock, and the new eviction sealing law, which she said was being implemented smoothly but may require additional resources if filings continue to rise. The Massachusetts Municipal Association and MAPC emphasized that municipalities need flexibility, funding, and better tools such as MassWorks, Housing Works, H-DIP, 40R reforms, inclusionary zoning changes, and a local option transfer fee; they also said local control concerns and long permitting timelines remain major barriers. MAPC and others stressed that supply growth alone will not solve the crisis and urged continued support for subsidized housing, access to counsel, and modular/off-site construction.
Advocates and housing providers focused on displacement, preservation, and tenant protections. Homes for All Massachusetts and Mass Law Reform Institute called for rent stabilization, stronger tenant protections, foreclosure prevention, elimination of junk fees, continued funding for RAFT and HomeBASE, and expanded access to counsel. Mass Union of Public Housing Tenants said the state needs far more extremely low-income housing, more operating subsidy, and major investment to repair public housing, while also supporting tenant technical assistance during redevelopment. Franklin County’s housing authority warned that rural communities are being left out of many state programs and asked for a rural LIHTC set-aside, a permanent rural credit boost, and a review of housing choice programs. A Massachusetts Taxpayers Foundation researcher presented findings that communities that add housing generally see stronger municipal finances, and that housing growth can improve property tax and state aid outcomes.
Seasonal community representatives from Cape Cod, Martha’s Vineyard, and Nantucket described extreme affordability pressures and the need for tailored tools. Nantucket’s housing trust chair said the island has made progress through local funding, inclusionary zoning, and deed-restricted units, but still needs a real estate transfer fee and faster ways to preserve year-round housing. Across the hearing, members and witnesses repeatedly returned to the need for a mix of production, preservation, tenant protections, and local flexibility, rather than relying on any single policy solution.
WA
Transcript Highlights:
- For the record, Ryan Gennini, staff counsel to this committee.
- If I were counsel on one of these cases, and it was a big case—well, I mean, any case to your client
- Good morning, for the record, Maya Aita, staff counsel to this committee.
- I also want to touch on our ability to serve patients that are detained in another county outside of
- To ensure that individuals subject to a 71.05 petition receive the effective assistance of counsel as
Committee:
Senate Law & Justice
Keywords:
spring blade knives, knife legislation, weapon regulation, public safety, law enforcement, medical debt, garnishment, wage garnishment, earnings exemption, exempt wages, debt collection, consumer debt, student loan debt, private student loans, disposable earnings, minimum wage, writ of garnishment, exemption claim, judgment debtor, creditor
TX
Texas 89th Regular
Senate Committee on Water, Agriculture, and Rural Affairs (Part I) Apr 14th, 2025
Water, Agriculture and Rural Affairs
Transcript Highlights:
- That means that 83% of our water utility services are outside.
- So cities that have... or even outside of the ETJ.
- So in your case, you have 80% of customers outside the ETJ or outside the city limits? Yes, sir.
- A board that has both inside and outside members?
- The cost of this counsel can be significant.
Bills:
SB1169 , SB1285 , SB1583 , SB1611 , SB1898 , SB1976 , SB2160 , SB2161 , SB2658 , SB2661 , SB2662 , SB2692 , SB1055 , SB1359 , SB2660
Committee:
Senate Water, Agriculture and Rural Affairs
KY
Transcript Highlights:
- . >> Mark Manley, deputy general counsel for the Kentucky Department of Agriculture.
- </c><00:03:14.959><c> for</c> >> Mark Manley, deputy general counsel for >> Mark Manley,
- of the immediately outside of the production in that moment.
- of the immediately outside of the production in that moment.
- of the immediately outside of the production in that moment.
Committee:
Senate Agriculture
KY
Transcript Highlights:
- </c> this bill is not that would be outside this bill is not that would be outside the<00:08:59.680><
- We fully support the right to counsel.
- Anyone who is uh accused of to counsel.
- Lewis is the counsel. Uh under Lewis v.
- I think and private counsel on that.
Committee:
House Judiciary
MA
Massachusetts 2025-2026 Regular Session
Special Joint Committee on Initiative Petitions Jun 21st, 2026 at 11:00 am
Transcript Highlights:
- for the Committee for Public Counsel Services.
- I'm the Chief Counsel at the Committee for Public Counsel Services.
- Related to the appointment and compensation of public counsel.
- Just a quick question for Counsel Benedetti, just to further understand your testimony.
- You heard that from the Chief Counsel. Many of those are administrative assistants.
Summary:
The Special Joint Committee on Initiative Petitions held a public hearing on Initiative Petition 2522 / H. 5909, which would amend state labor law to treat the Committee for Public Counsel Services (CPCS) as a public employer and allow its employees to seek collective bargaining rights. The chair explained the Article 48 initiative process, noted that no opponents or members of the public had signed up to testify, and said written testimony would be accepted through March 20. The hearing focused on whether CPCS staff should be brought within the public-sector bargaining framework and how that would interact with the agency’s statutory duties.
Expert testimony began with an NCSL analyst, who gave a national overview of public employee bargaining rights and examples of public defender unions in other states and localities, including Colorado, New York City, Indianapolis, Cook County, Maryland, and Illinois. Department of Labor Relations officials then reviewed prior failed organizing efforts at CPCS and its predecessor, explaining that earlier petitions were dismissed because the agency was not considered a public employer under existing law. They said passage of the initiative would not automatically unionize employees, but would allow a union to petition for an election or written majority authorization, with normal unit-appropriateness and supervisory/confidential employee issues still to be resolved.
CPCS Chief Counsel Anthony Benedetti testified that the agency supports providing information to the legislature but is not taking a position for or against unionization. He described CPCS’s statutory responsibilities, size, and current efforts to expand staffing after recent indigent-defense crises, and said any new bargaining framework would need to operate alongside the agency’s obligations to provide counsel. Proponents from SEIU Local 888 and allied labor groups argued that CPCS employees have long been denied the same collective bargaining rights as other public workers, and that a union would provide just-cause protections, a voice on staffing and working conditions, and better support for recruitment and retention. CPCS attorneys and staff testified in favor of the measure, citing heavy caseloads, rapid expansion, inadequate supervision and office support, and the need for representation in disciplinary and workplace disputes. Committee members asked about bargaining-unit composition, the role of the DLR, the effect of unionization on attorneys’ ethical duties, and the use and cost of paid signature gathering. The hearing ended with no votes taken and no opposition testimony presented.
AZ
Arizona 2026 Regular Session
03/25/2026 - Senate Regulatory Affairs and Government Efficiency
Regulatory Affairs and Government Efficiency
Transcript Highlights:
- You guys work with outside of Arizona in your alliance?
- Take outside of the corral. It doesn't work.
- I'm going to do something completely different outside the box.
- Genetic counseling licensure matters because it protects patients.
- Genetic counseling licensure matters because it protects patients.
Bills:
HB2072 , HB2251 , HB2279 , HB2308 , HB2323 , HB2342 , HB2400 , HB2408 , HB2456 , HB2660 , HB2697 , HB2868 , HB2873 , HB2877 , HB2910 , HB2946 , HB2955 , HB2991 , HB4001 , HB4010
Keywords:
Cesar Chavez, public holiday, state law, holiday repeal, Arizona Revised Statutes, dental practice, business registration, registration fees, ownership interests, dental insurers, dental record management, motor vehicle warranty, warranty law, leased vehicles, lease-end buyout, lessee, lessor, used motor vehicle dealer, consumer protection, A.R.S. 44-1261
LA
Transcript Highlights:
- She said she wants it to be clear to people coming in for treatment that the centers provide counseling
- Well, again, it's my understanding, and I've been told by legal counsel that represents the board that
- They only do the counseling and the materials and those pieces. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
- "Would it be fair to say you went far outside of that?" "Not normally than we typically do.
- I think you still do, because this does create a new section of law outside of the Pregnancy and Baby
Committee:
House Health and Welfare
Summary:
The committee first took up House Bill 611 by Rep. Freeman, which would require pregnancy-related service centers that provide health care services to be licensed or, as amended, to clearly disclose that they are not a licensed medical facility regulated by the Louisiana Department of Health. Rep. Freeman and supporting witnesses argued the bill was prompted by a legislative auditor report and concerns that some centers provide ultrasounds, STI testing, pregnancy tests, and related services without clear medical oversight. The Louisiana State Board of Medical Examiners’ executive director testified that interpreting ultrasounds and performing certain tests can constitute the practice of medicine, while opponents argued the centers already operate under medical directors and that the disclosure requirement was unconstitutional under the NIFLA case. The committee adopted an amendment, but after debate on the amended bill, a motion to report favorably failed on a roll call vote, and the bill was voluntarily deferred.
The committee then heard House Bill 902 by Rep. Marcelle, which directs the Louisiana Department of Health to develop trauma-informed training. Supporters said the bill grew out of a task force on student behavior, mental health, and discipline, and that educators need a more consistent, evidence-based trauma-informed curriculum than what is currently available online. Some members raised concerns about cost and whether the bill would mandate new school obligations, while a witness from the Louisiana Baptist Convention opposed the measure as mission creep and argued trauma-informed care is too specialized for general teacher training. Other members supported the bill as a way to help educators identify and respond to children facing trauma. The bill was amended with technical changes and then discussed further, but the transcript ends before a final vote on HB 902 is shown.
NM
New Mexico 2025 Regular Session
IC - Indian Affairs Jul 16th, 2025
House Government, Elections & Indian Affairs
Transcript Highlights:
- that we have here is due to the support of committees like yourself and members of the And learn outside
- We're trying to link them to medications for addiction treatment and counseling services.
- When it first started, it was patterned after the way our elders used to counsel and work with us.
- And he in turn, turned around and started counseling other people that were in that arena.
- And so he just continued to drink, but afterwards when the elders got... together and counsel him.